[VSH ONLY] Dead Ringer Buff

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jonite1526
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[VSH ONLY] Dead Ringer Buff

Post by jonite1526 »

Hello,

I know what most of you are thinking, why the fuck would you buff the dead ringer, well hear me out on this.

The dead ringer, SPECIFICALLY on VSH is absolutely horrendous. Very rarely do you see anyone at all use the weapon, anyone who argues that they see it all the time is high, no offense...but just no. Players choose the invisiwatch over the dead ringer because of the great utility that it provides, it can be used anytime, and it takes 3 hits to be killed.

The dead ringer on the other hand provides a short death feign with a movement speed buff at the end, has a fast recharge rate, and can it takes 2 hits to be killed.


After using both items, I found that the dead ringer seems to be lacking somewhere. What I found where it lack was the disconnect in the time it takes to recharge and the time it takes to heal back up to its point where its able to be used.

What I propose is to change the item so that there is less of a disconnect and try and put the item on the same playing field as the invisiwatch, as from experience and observation, no one ever uses it.

Here is the proposed change:

*Increase* the recharge time on the dead ringer
Increase the amount of health left after being hit by hale but not enough that its 3 hits like the invisiwatch
(instead of being put to 65 health put to 85 maybe)

What this will do:

Reducing the recharge time on the dead ringer will be definitely be a disappointing nerf, however it going to make the issues that hale has to deal with on maps like military arena where the health packs are just large pots. On military arena specifically, there are issues with spies stalling with dead ringers because the fact that you can heal up so fast and use it right away. The proposed change will help prevent this.

Now I am not particularly sure if its possible to do everything that is addressed in the 2nd part but what this will do is make it easier to heal back up after being hit by hale so that the spy can join the fight instead of waiting forever by a health pack.






Addressing some possible concerns/opinions:

The dead ringer is already balanced:

If the dead ringer was balanced than why doesn't anyone use it? Why are the best spy players on the VSH servers using the invisiwatch as opposed to the dead ringer? To answer both of my questions in response to the opinion, the dead ringer is either under powered and the invisiwatch is overpowered; or the dead ringer is balanced and the invisiwatch is overpowered. Simply its the fact that there are a HUGE number of benefits to using the invisiwatch that the dead ringer simply doesn't provide. In addition, once hit once, it takes too long to return back to the fight.

Buffing it will return it back to the way it was....a stalling mechanism:

Sure, maybe...but my proposed change will do 2 things to help counteract this. Reducing the time it takes to recharge will make you wait have to wait longer before its next use. Yes maybe, players will be able to return to the fight more frequently meaning they will be able to use the item more, but I would argue, its better than seeing a spy camp a candy bar health pack.

It is an issue with team composition:

If its an issue with team composition, that means we need more medics. This means that we would have to buff medics so that more people would use the class. The thing is, when in doubt, people are gonna play the classes they want to play and it would be very hard to make changes to fix team composition

You can jump and use the knockback already to escape:

Yes they can do that, but the knockback direction is predictable, hale can run in that direction, and once you uncloak u are vulnerable.

You are going to force hale to use a rage on a single target:

We see this with the invisiwatch too but apparently its not a problem.

Players could abuse the healing mechanism with fall damage:

If 1 of two things are implemented, this shouldn't be a problem. First if you make the healing ONLY go into effect if the player is below a certain amount of health, or if you make the healing ONLY go into effect if the player is hit by an opponent (ie. the hale).

FF2 doesn't have a problem with this, spies use it all the time:

There are simply more medics on FF2.

Thank you for reading, I hope you like this idea. Please comment your opinions and I will try to respond. If you have any questions or other concerns I will address them aswell.
Last edited by jonite1526 on Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:17 am, edited 6 times in total.
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HankHill
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Re: [VSH ONLY] Dead Ringer Buff

Post by HankHill »

If I may input my own two cents on this, I think I might have a solution to the problem.

The reason that InvisiWatch is used more is almost solely because of its reliability and damage resistance, which is easily enough to have it tower over its competition. Sure, Dead Ringer protects you from a hit, but Invisiwatch does for two; even without the speed buff, good Spies can avoid Hale like he's the plague if push came to shove. This is where I bring an idea of my own in: Why not rework the Invisiwatch and slightly buff the Dead Ringer?

I go, once again, to Saxton Hell, where they had perhaps the most balanced system for these two watches.

The Dead Ringer

The Dead Ringer works like it normally does, but it increases your damage resistance to that of the InvisiWatch of Disc-FF VSH, meaning you can take three hits off the bat. You also cannot pull it out for two seconds after a backstab there, so it was a fair way to protect yourself a little after a backstab.

The InvisiWatch

Here is where things get interesting. The InvisiWatch is very different on that server. In Saxton Hell, it doesn't give you any damage resistances (so one hit is death at all times), but it gives you two buffs. For starters, the cloak and decloak is practically instant, with a half-second before you can input an attack or cloak. The second buff is that, if you land a backstab, you get a speed buff for...I want to say 15 seconds, giving you evasiveness afterwards, and you still can't cloak for two seconds after said backstab.

The verdict: I always thought that what I described above was the most balanced in comparison to what it is now, but I also think that Heavy should get longer Taunt Crits, so...take that as you will. I know I'm proposing a rework rather than a direct buff/nerf, but I've played with the above system long before I found disc-ff, so I know it works.

If nothing else, I'd like to see one change to the Dead Ringer: Give the Spy a damage resistance on a backstab for a few seconds, long enough to pull the Dead Ringer out. It would make it to where the Spy would have to earn a damage resistance rather than be given one off the bat. Just a thought.

There are some points I want to add on top of what Jonite mentioned.

Dead Ringer is already balanced

No it's not. Its job to protect the Spy from dying is done better with the current InvisiWatch. On top of that, the InvisiWatch leaves you with enough Health to come in almost immediately, while the Dead Ringer has you hunting for Health Packs.

Buff will promote stall

It already does on specific maps. Military Base is easily the most cancerous I've seen when it comes to Dead Ringer Spies, since it's littered with small ammo packs and maximum Health Packs, meaning any Spy with a Dead Ringer can theoretically stall for the entire round. Increasing the cloak build-up time would alleviate this problem.

It Promotes Single Raging

You know that this happens with InvisiWatch, right? We understand why it happens: It's overpowered.

Those are my thoughts, though.
Last edited by HankHill on Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Polar Bear Facts
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Re: [VSH ONLY] Dead Ringer Buff

Post by Polar Bear Facts »

I think the Dead Ringer can be open to buffs but not on as large of a scale as the post is suggesting. The current state of the Dead Ringer is a bit tricky only because the playability of that weapon is in direct correlation to how well the spy can recover health and re-enter fights. Maps like Military Arena make the dead ringer the optimal choice over the invisiwatch due to the survivability spies have when cloaked. The trade-off is the obvious damage sustained from one hit but on maps with large health packs, this downside is practically null.

I think the current function of the Dead Ringer is okay, not ideal but okay because of its place as a situational choice for spies. It does indeed take a long time to recover from a hit using the Dead Ringer (4 small health pack I believe to get back to full health). If maps receive changes to the health packs and how strong their presences is on maps, my opinion is subject to easily change.

If the Dead Ringer is subject to improvements, a good place to start would be to modify how much damage spies take after a single hit, rather than rework the cloak duration or add on health regeneration. Find a balance so that spies that can get into the fight after one hit from Hale (by picking up a small health pack and being able to survive another hit de-cloaked) but be left at a small enough bit of heath that there is a fair risk and reward system to getting back into the fight. As long as Dead Ringer spies are unable to sustain 3 hits after being cloaked, this might be a better area to buff the weapon.

To Paul/HankHill's suggestion, I'm familiar with the changes he's suggesting to the invisiwatch, and while I found the reworked invisiwatch on other servers to be a unique experience, I don't necessarily agree that there is a need to rework the weapon altogether to reflect these changes. Rather than put those changes on the invisiwatch, a weapon that has an overall balanced impact for spies, it might be more optimal to introduce those changes on a different weapon, such as the Cloak and Dagger which has no function on VSH servers. This would open up a new, alternative playstyle for spies without negating the previous one.

TLDR: Focus changes to the Dead Ringer towards the amount of damage spies take from a hit, not give them health regen or nerf cloak regen rates. Implement Paul's suggestions towards the invisiwatch rework for the Cloak and Dagger, if anything.
Last edited by Polar Bear Facts on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Idjit
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Re: [VSH ONLY] Dead Ringer Buff

Post by Idjit »

I don't think these changes are either possible, or warranted. I'll address each specific change on its own then as a group:

Reduced recharge times: The Dead Ringer is already an effective watch, with it's current recharge time. You can get away with quite a bit, especially on maps that have more health kits and metal laying around. Decreasing the recharge time would turn this from somewhat of a stalling weapon into a weapon made entirely for stalling. Between a reduced recharge time and a L'etranger, you could have Deadringer up 100% of the time.

More damage resistance: Just to point out, the watch is already put on the cusp of being a two hit kill. You lose 65 health when hit with the ringer, and increasing the damage resistance would give the dead ringer a clear advantage over the invis watch.

Even without decreasing the recharge time, just the damage resistance alone would make the deadringer better, as you still get the speed boost from getting hit.

Healing after de-cloaking: Should this be applied even to the current deadringer, it would be more than overpowered. Spies could stall infinitely with items like the L'tranger, which give you cloak back on hit. You'd be creating a spy that gets speed, health back for being HIT, damage resistance equal to the invis watch.

I've said it before and I'll stick by it, I believe people simply aren't using it correctly. People aren't using good tech like jumping before being hit to use the knockback to your advantage, pushing you far away from the hale and keeping you safe. This even works while you're raged, if you can fall off of a small ramp or ledge. It's not nearly as predictable as you think, especially with air strafing. This is also ignoring the fact that the watch allows you to make jumps that a spy normally can't make due to the speed boost. Simply damaging yourself allows an already faster than average class to move even faster.

It's also more than illogical to balance around the idea of people not playing a class. This would be like balancing heavies to regen health because no one plays medic. And so what, when someone actually does play Medic, the hale is shit out of luck? Class composition is something to be discussed with teammates, and game modes shouldn't be balanced around the idea that people don't play a class, especially the best healer in the game.


____________________

As for the suggestions regarding Saxton He'll, I can't get behind them for a few reasons:

Deadringer: works the way the old one did, which people thought was arguably overpowered. You could survive a rage if the Hale missed one melee, as he wouldn't be able to chew through the rest of your health. It's a strong getaway tool with perfect reaction time. It's also a carbon copy of the current invis watch, minus the perfect reaction time, meaning that it would again render the invis watch useless.

Invis Watch: Part of the reason Demoman was nerfed before is because the Demomen we had on our servers were performing too well. They were easily reaching 5K damage, being rewarded for staying further away from the Hale, etc. This buff to the InvisWatch would give our already over preforming spies far too much of an advantage, or be incredibly underwhelming. The results are based on the speed boost, and if you run faster than Hale or not. If you do, the better spies that do frequent our servers would be nigh unkillable, incredibly unpredictable, and practically unpunishable. If the spy can't run faster than Hale after a stab, then the watch is good for maybe a surprise backstab and that's it. You get raged and you die, because you lack damage resistance.

Im still a proprietor of each watch being in a good state, and am sticking to the idea that people just need to learn the tricks that the deadringer offers them.
Last edited by Idjit on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Armen
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Re: [VSH ONLY] Dead Ringer Buff

Post by Armen »

Idjit wrote:-snip-
This.

I had a hard time explaining in words why these ideas were not "good."
The Dead Ringer is great already. Just because people don't use it doesn't automatically mean that it's bad.
DR offers a completely different play style than that of an Invisiwatch. Players are probably not utilizing the DR correctly.
I myself do very well with the DR and I have also seen people dominate with it.
Last edited by Armen on Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [VSH ONLY] Dead Ringer Buff

Post by jonite1526 »

Using what you said in comparison to demos, players don't use the melee weapons other than the eyelander simply because they don't know how to utilize the properly. However, simply we know this is not true because the eyelander is a much more optimal choice considering how much stronger it is.


To idjits first point I meant to say that we should increase the recharge time on it. Ill edit that.

More damage resistance...I don't agree with adding damage resistance

Healing after decloaking would only be applied if you are below a certain amount of health when the dead ringer is triggered. This would ensure that you could not abuse the effect.

Next point, if people weren't using it correctly, why do we skilled players, like you idjit, me, sko, and ace who are some of the best spy players on the VSH server using the stock invis watch instead of the dead ringer. If it was not being utilized correctly, I'd assure you that the stronger players would pick it up and learn how to use, except most of these player definitely understand how to use it, but prefer the invis watch because its much stronger. Idjit you know how much I play spy and how much I understand using the weapons.

I never suggested balancing around the class, the thing is, in VSH we don't discuss team composition, why...because people play what they want to play.

MY suggestions would NOT return the item back to its original state, but the idea is to help players heal up quicker so that they can return to the fight, while keeping the fact that its a 2 hit kill.
Last edited by jonite1526 on Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [VSH ONLY] Dead Ringer Buff

Post by Idjit »

The demoman comparison was focused on the shields vs. stickybombs. Every demoman used the shield, even though with the right type of play stickybombs would outperform shield demos. Everyone just chose shield because it came down to people not understanding the best way to utilize stickybombs.

The healing idea would still be far too hard to code in my opinion, and it still is technically balancing around the idea of not having a Medic playing with you, or not having a dispenser, which you can get through an Engi or RTD. Spies would heal up too quickly after it being used, and they would be able to regen cloaking with ammo or a L'tranger, which is one of the more popular revolvers.

I'm still very confident in my statement. The reason behind me not using the deadriger is that I no longer have a strange one. It's damage resistance is fantastic (since it also allows you to resist falls), it allows you to do things the invis watch doesn't, without rendering the invis watch pointless.

Your change can be achieved by just asking an Engi to hide their dispenser, or asking a Medic to heal you.
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Armen
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Re: [VSH ONLY] Dead Ringer Buff

Post by Armen »

jonite1526 wrote: Next point, if people weren't using it correctly, why do we skilled players, like you idjit, me, sko, and ace who are some of the best spy players on the VSH server using the stock invis watch instead of the dead ringer.
Lmao I still don't understand this. You know there are other reasons why people don't use one than the fact that you think it's unbalanced.
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