Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

MafiK
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Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by MafiK »

The title may have seemed strident, but if you could please read until the end I would greatly appreciate feedback and opinions.
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Today I decided to join the DISC-FF Saxton Hale server #1, a server that I used to play on all the time. An admin named HorridSauce3 was in the server with me. On the map crevice, there are multiple tunnels that intertwine with each other, and the specific one I was in was next to the red spawn. I was playing the heavy class with the brass beast, and I was simply waiting for the hale to come my way. Everyone ended up dying and I was the last player alive, with criticals enabled on my brass beast. After about 15 seconds of me being the last player alive I was slayed by HorridSauce3. He claimed I was violating server rules, so I checked to see which rule I broke, however I didn't see any. I proceeded to ask him what rule exactly did I violate, and he responded by telling me that I wasn't actively fighting the hale, but in the Saxton Hale Rules I didn't see that I have to actively fight hale. I know that last sentence seemed broad and irrational, but please read on. I told him that in the server rules it doesn't say I have to actively fight the hale, and he recited one of the rules to me, which was this one: "There are no friendlies. Everyone must fight." I was not being friendly at all or had any intentions of being friendly. Then he emphasized the second sentence, which is "Everyone must fight." I responded with, "But I was going to fight the hale" and he followed up with "I'm not worried about the future I'm worried about the present" So I said this: "So basically when I spawn I am violating the rules because I'm not actively fighting the hale? It's the present right? So I'm violating the rules?" he then went back to his claim which was I wasn't actively fighting the hale. He also said he was tired and didn't want to deal with any of this, which I completely understand, but if you're an admin and you slay someone you should have a reason to do so. In a fresh round, I speculated that maybe Horrid realized that he could have been mistaken, so I went back to the spot I was at previously. I was kicked for the this exact reason, which was "useless." I will say now that the average person perceives arguing as useless conservation involving anecdotal claims and spewing out angry words, so I will use the term converse. I appreciate Horrid's patience and not being the typical admin that shuts me down with a mute, Horrid if you're reading this thank you for not being low like that. We were both tired of conversing, so I decided to consult Shankin, another admin that I used to play with on the hale server before he even was admin. I've consulted Shankin before and he seemed to handle the situation without bias, so I thought he would be a good choice. A player in the game by the name of Paul most likely had Shankin on his friends list and he acknowledged that Shankin was playing Left 4 Dead 2, so he was dragged out of Left 4 Dead 2 to deal with a situation which definitely threw bias into the whole mediation process that he went through. Shankin was clearly angry, and I understand because being pulled out of a game to deal with a situation is annoying, but if you're an admin you volunteered to be an admin, which means that you make the server owner's job easier by managing issues that an admin should handle, which definitely includes a player accusing an admin of not having a basic understanding of server rules. I tried to explain the situation to Shankin, and it ultimately ended up with him saying, "You don't argue with an admin, if an admin tells you do go out and shoot the hale do it." Clearly he didn't know about the situation, because Horrid never told me to go out and shoot the hale. So I decided from then on I was conversing with a semi-irrational person. He then proceeded to say, "Don't argue with an admin." I responded with, "But what if an admin doesn't have a basic understanding of server rules?" And he cut me off and said, "Don't argue with an admin." in a threatening tone, so I stopped. When he left I continued to converse with Horrid, and at this point he's most likely tired of dealing with all of this. But the reason why I made a big deal out of it was not just because I was slayed or kicked, but I worry about Horrid's future decisions and the effects on other players if he doesn't have knowledge of the server rules. In a fresh round, 2 engineers were last, both having 0 damage. Both had sentry guns and dispensers, and both were ready to fight the hale, which perfectly represents my situation before I was slayed. I asked him, "Horrid they both have 0 damage and they are last in an uncommon spot, why don't they get slayed?" He responded with, "Ok." They didn't get slayed and the round played out. Horrid's argument was that they have sentry guns, and I replied by saying, "Well I have a minigun" which shoots bullets just like a sentry gun, so what is the difference? I mentioned this to Shankin and he said, "Engineers can't defend themselves, heavies can." Engineers can defend themselves with sentry guns, and heavies can defend themselves with miniguns. You could argue that engineers without sentry guns couldn't defend themselves, but that would be logically false because engineers are capable of making sentry guns, much like how heavies are capable of shooting their weapon. Heavies are also extremely slow and heavies in the position the engineers were in hales would easily be able to go around them and kill them, which would mean I was just as defenseless as the engineers.

Admins should have a basic understanding of server rules, so no one gets affected negatively or the admin won't be abusing his/her power. Shankin if you're reading this you also told me that I'm trying to be a troll, with a very "fuck you" attitude, which I thought was ridiculous considering that I'm trying to tell him what is happening and he responds like that. Anyways the point of this isn't to ruin Horrid or Shankin's reputation, their admin status is just fine and I'm sure they do a great job, and besides everyone is human and they make mistakes. I'm just concerned with future decisions of Horrid and the effects it has on other players. The same two engineers were also doing their sentry nest in the corner of the map on a different round, and a player by the name of "patriosogames" complained and said they should be slayed because they weren't actively fighting the hale. This is a perfect example of why admins must have knowledge of server rules, because it can rub off on other players, having negative effects on them. If you have opinions on how my claim is valid or any opinions on how I'm retarded and I'm overthinking this whole thing that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I created and mentioned this in the forums because I care about the DISC community and I would like to see a little bit more admin participation and understanding of server rules. Thank you.
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Abraham
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Re: Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by Abraham »

Holy mother of wall of text, Trump could flap this shit on the border or mexico.

Also wrong subforum I think.
Last edited by Abraham on Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MoneyKidKing
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Re: Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by MoneyKidKing »

Hello.

First off, Horrid was right to slay you for being useless if you were camping and the last one alive as a heavy. He likely should have (and likely did) given you a warning about that before slaying you. The only class that should plausibly have 0 damage by then is the engineer (which you used as a counter example). The reason this is not considered "useless" is because they have to take time to build a "nest" somewhere they don't believe they should be killed by the hale immediately. Conversely heavies (and all other classes) have more movement options (gloves of running urgently, powerjack, charge and targe, etc) and should be able to survive out in the open against a hale. However, even with this, I still consider a hidden engineer nest minor stalling, in which on maps that allow it, Hale should be allowed to cap.
Secondly, if you have a complaint about how an admin handled a situation, and have been asked to "not argue with an admin" please avoid doing so on the server, as it is not the appropriate place to do so. Instead, you should post on our forums, under the TF2 section "Reports/Ban Disputes".
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Re: Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by JackieDrawsCx »

^^^^ Exactly what money said, and i'd like to add on that heavies have mobilit; they can run around shoot cause rev up tine isnr that time consuming. As to which engineers need to build their nest IS TIME CONSUMING and even then if they choose to move their sentry it would still take time to have it build it self back up. If all engies tried that they'd basically die due to the fact that the hale runs fast.
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sambawarkiddo
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Re: Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by sambawarkiddo »

Abraham wrote:Holy mother of wall of text, Trump could flap this shit on the border or mexico.

Also wrong subforum I think.
paragraphs should be your best friend.
Last edited by sambawarkiddo on Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MafiK
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Re: Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by MafiK »

Yeah I didn't really know how to navigate around these forums, I'm fairly new. If you guys want I can copy and paste all this into that section, but I don't think it's worth the trouble. Back to what you were saying Money I follow rules that are shown and provided on the server, and the rule that you are pertaining to is the first one which says, "No delaying. Delaying will result in a punishment." There wasn't a rule that ever said no camping. No delaying is a rule, but it is possible to camp and not delay. The engineers don't take the whole round to build a sentry nest, so arguing that engineers take time to build a nest is invalid. The time it takes for me to get to my spot is relatively similar to the time it takes to build a level 3 sentry, especially if there are two engineers. Movement isn't really an object because regardless of the situation the hale is still quicker than me even if I used the gloves of running urgently, and the powerjack and charge and targe aren't used by the heavy class so it's irrelevant. And you're also right Money, I should have came on the forums sooner. Jackie it seems like you are trying to justify that heavies aren't as defenseless as engineers, but engineers are capable of building auto-aim sentries which is far more powerful and accurate than a human-operated weapon, like the minigun. Even if an engineer had no sentry or any building of any kind and they were running around they are just as vulnerable as a heavy, because heavies can't defend themselves in the open. Even if I have the gloves of running urgently the hale is still quicker than me, the same goes for the engineer. Moving their sentry doesn't have anything to do with their level of defense so that's irrelevant, and sentries are time consuming to build, but they don't take any longer than 3 minutes at the most. I also spawned on the other side of the map where my spot is farther away, so it took me about a minute to get to my spot. A round typically lasts from 5-10 minutes, but the round that I got slayed in was about 7 minutes, possibly more. So there is no way that an engineer takes 7 minutes to build a level 3 sentry. I know you guys might try and argue that it is possible for a sentry to take 7 minutes to build, but the average experienced player (like me) would build a dispenser first and then build a sentry gun, which would make it at 3 minutes tops. Keep the replies going! I would like to see a valid argument :)
MafiK
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Re: Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by MafiK »

I posted this at 1:13 sambawarkiddo, but if it bothers you you can go ahead and copy and paste it into a document and make paragraphs and send it to me.
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Re: Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by Fire »

If I understand the situation correctly you were playing on VSH as a Heavy and for the entire round you hid in a tunnel. After some time you ended up being the last person left and got slayed without a warning for being friendly/useless/delaying the round.

Firstly you should have been given a verbal/text warning to leave your hiding spot and finish up the round. If you aren't a habitual rule breaker then he was wrong for not doing that first.

You were breaking a rule as stated. If you aren't helping your team for the entire round and hiding in a tunnel you are being useless. Hiding by yourself to eventually encounter the hale isn't a viable strategy for the heavy and ultimately wastes everyone's time. To your point about the heavy class and engineer being the same I don't agree. The engineer class is specifically designed for camping/creating a nest. The engineer also has tools like the short circuit to stun the hale which makes them viable for 1v1 combat if the hale enters their nest. The heavy has no tools to properly face the hale in one on one combat. He is slow, he has no way to stun, he has no way to reliably heal or regen ammo. The class is at its best when teaming with other support classes like engineer or medic.

Regarding the listen to the admin rule. It's there so that ultimately the admin on the server is able to make a final decision and maintain the flow of gameplay on the server. This however doesn't mean you can't question a decision, but if it gets to the point were it's a debate and disrupting the server I'd rather you take it to private chat or on the forums like you did.
Last edited by Fire on Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MoneyKidKing
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Re: Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by MoneyKidKing »

I don't want to have an argument here, but I'll explain the reasoning behind the rules.
The goal that we have as admins on our servers is to provide a fun, flowing gamemode on all of our servers.
On VSH, if every single players hides on their own, not only does it become less fun to play as hale, it become a game of "hide and seek" which makes rounds takes longer (which makes people leave due to boredom). In order to prevent this we have a "no friendly/stalling" rule, which is meant to make players attempt to do as much damage as possible, as quickly as possible.
Engineers however, due to their play style require slightly different rule enforcement. They may "hide" in places that the hale can find/get to easily enough. It is generally beneficially for many players of red to group up on an engineer nest in order to optimize both their damage, and the engineer's damage. However, it is not terribly uncommon for people to simply just ignore the engineer on their team, requiring them to try to hold out on their own.
I would rather not hear more comparisons as to how the engineer and heavy are similar, as their mechanics are fundamentally different (comparing apples and oranges). Keep in mind that heavies (and most other classes) do most of their damage to the hale while the hale is chasing down teammates, which is lost if you are hiding on your own, looking for a 1v1.
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Shankin
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Re: Admins and Their Basic Understanding Of Server Rules

Post by Shankin »

"Shankin was playing Left 4 Dead 2, so he was dragged out of Left 4 Dead 2 to deal with a situation which definitely threw bias"

You don't have me added, and I was not playing l4d2 at the time so nothing was biased at all. And the useless heavy part, all I asked you to do was just listen to what the admins say, y'know. and what money said
"Keep in mind that heavies (and most other classes) do most of their damage to the hale while the hale is chasing down teammates, which is lost if you are hiding on your own, looking for a 1v1."

and I wasn't angry, more disappointed in you because you were a long time regular and you know the rules.
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