Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

freakplayer1
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Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by freakplayer1 »

My request is to buff soldier. He is very hard to deal significant damage and make an impact with. His small clip size makes it so you CONSTANTLY have to do slow reloading and look for ammo packs. Overall ammo capacity is low too, runs out way too fast. If there are no dispensers, soldiers become painful to play with. Especially considering some maps are VERY scant with the ammo packs. He requires taunting more than any other classes to deal any damage. And unlike taunting with pyro or heavy where you generally still have ammo to fire with after taunt crits are over, generally once you taunt with soldier your entire clip will be gone and you have to do slow reload again. You can sit by an amplifier to get taunt crits, but I feel like that runs counter to how soldier is meant to be played. Plus, alot of the time the amp is not in an an idle position for soldier to get good shots anyway. It is also very easy to kill soldiers as hale. And even when I play hale, I usually ignore soldiers because they aren't a threat in any way generally. Rarely, will you see someone who is actively playing soldier be on the leaderboard.

Some other classes, like heavies demos and scouts, have to reload often but they make up for it with other skills. Heavies clip lasts longer, and has more stopping power on hale, plus they destroy hales when they have medic with them. Demos have melee, and 2 viable guns. Scouts can dodge hale the best of all classes except spy.

Suggested fixes for Soldier. You can do only 1 or 2 if you want:
-double overall ammo capacity and also clip size (so rather than 4/20, make it 8/40);
-make it so ammo packs refill more rockets;
-make all rockets mini-crit by default (this would be cool and make him different from other classes);
-make reloading a clip faster;
-very slightly decrease rocket jump and fall damage, and very slightly increase move speed to encourage more mobile soldier play and more viability as the ''last man standing'' (not too much, so you don't encourage excessive stalling at the end of a match);
-homing rockets (make rockets very slightly turn towards hale to make it easier to land rockets)

thanks for reading. I really enjoy FF server, just making suggestion based on observation. :thumbup:
Last edited by freakplayer1 on Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:58 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Zethy
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Re: Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by Zethy »

The state of Soldier in FF2 currently is of a juggernaut. He is very mobile, can do lots of damage and can withstand a long battle with the boss alone. All the points you've mentioned are instantly negated to the fact that soldier has the 2nd best mobility in the gamemode and the best damage tool with survival tools. There is no sane reason to buff soldier, he is currently overpowered.
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White Sedan
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Re: Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by White Sedan »

Homing rockets, double clip size, faster reload, full mini crits.
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Armen
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Re: Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by Armen »

Soldier can be very strong and has high mobility. No reason to give it any buffs or changes right now.
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Faiithe
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Re: Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by Faiithe »

White Sedan wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:14 pm Homing rockets, double clip size, faster reload, full mini crits.
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HankHill
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Re: Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by HankHill »

Soldier is perhaps the best all-around class in the server and for good reason.

It has amongst the best mobility. Sure it doesn't jump as far as Pyro's Flare Jump and it doesn't run fast, but Rocket Jumping is skill-based for a reason. Heavy reward for those that can learn it, giving you both a reliable distance closer and escape route when needed.

Coupled with Taunt Crits, Soldier has perhaps the most reliable damage source out of every class, short of a distanced Sniper, maybe. 270 when a normal rocket lands, 135 splash, and you can empty your clip on a taunt? You can't argue an easy 1k+ damage source this easy to use. Scout, Spy, Pyro, and Heavy generally need to be close, Engineer's Sentry can be played around, location pending, and pipe aiming with Demo is overall slightly more difficult than Rockets (imo).

Soldier even has a support option thanks to the Battalion's Backup. Sure you have to rely more on Health Kits, but it's a small price to pay for reducing the damage taken by Hale for you and your teammates in a critical moment. If he rages and you had the charge ready, now your teammates are more likely to survive. A bunch of teammates ready to attack Hale? Launch off a Backup and protect them further. Couple this with a Zatoichi and watch the HP come rolling back in.

Soldier doesn't really need any large changes because he's already good.

tl;dr Get good or get fucked. That's the name of this game and it always has been.
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freakplayer1
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Re: Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by freakplayer1 »

Zethy wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:45 pm The state of Soldier in FF2 currently is of a juggernaut. He is very mobile, can do lots of damage and can withstand a long battle with the boss alone. All the points you've mentioned are instantly negated to the fact that soldier has the 2nd best mobility in the gamemode and the best damage tool with survival tools. There is no sane reason to buff soldier, he is currently overpowered.
Juggernaut? I don't feel like we're playing the same game. Yes, there is the occasional pro player who manages to score 3000 against a hale, every class has that. I'm not denying it's possible to score high with soldier if you are pro. But in my experience playing on the server for a couple of weeks soldiers don't really last. I'm telling you, soldier's don't get picked. And when they do get picked, more often then not they will end up doing little damage and not even being on the leaderboard, let alone top 3. He does not have 2nd best mobility. He has at most 3rd best mobility based on my observations of who tends to die last to hales. Scouts and pyros have better mobility than soldiers. Pyros have slightly faster movement speed and their flare jump is better than soldiers rocket jump. Also spies have better mobility if you count evasion skills with cloaking. I can more easily catch soldiers who are rocket jumping than catch the other three classes.
White Sedan wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:14 pm Homing rockets, double clip size, faster reload, full mini crits.

No.
I mean, at least double clip size or slightly faster reload would be nice.
Armen wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:49 pm Soldier can be very strong and has high mobility. No reason to give it any buffs or changes right now.
Soldiers have just okay mobility in my opinion, and they can't rocket jump much without abundant health packs. They can't rocket jump as well as pyros can flare jump, and even pyros have trouble avoiding hale when it's only a few people left. Plus, while they are rocket jumping they will probably fail to land any decent shots at hale anyway and then just end up dieing.

HankHill wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:25 pm Soldier is perhaps the best all-around class in the server and for good reason.

It has amongst the best mobility. Sure it doesn't jump as far as Pyro's Flare Jump and it doesn't run fast, but Rocket Jumping is skill-based for a reason. Heavy reward for those that can learn it, giving you both a reliable distance closer and escape route when needed.

Coupled with Taunt Crits, Soldier has perhaps the most reliable damage source out of every class, short of a distanced Sniper, maybe. 270 when a normal rocket lands, 135 splash, and you can empty your clip on a taunt? You can't argue an easy 1k+ damage source this easy to use. Scout, Spy, Pyro, and Heavy generally need to be close, Engineer's Sentry can be played around, location pending, and pipe aiming with Demo is overall slightly more difficult than Rockets (imo).

Soldier even has a support option thanks to the Battalion's Backup. Sure you have to rely more on Health Kits, but it's a small price to pay for reducing the damage taken by Hale for you and your teammates in a critical moment. If he rages and you had the charge ready, now your teammates are more likely to survive. A bunch of teammates ready to attack Hale? Launch off a Backup and protect them further. Couple this with a Zatoichi and watch the HP come rolling back in.

Soldier doesn't really need any large changes because he's already good.

tl;dr Get good or get fucked. That's the name of this game and it always has been.
Soldiers rarely place on the leaderboard, let alone top 3. They are not the best all-around class. I can rocket jump, but unless the map has health packs in good open locations, and unless hale sucks, it won't help much. I usually have no problem catching soldiers rocket jumping. I have more difficulty catching pyros who are flare jumping.

It's not that easy to get 1K damage with a hale that is running back and forth and super jumping all over the place. Usually I taunt, I shoot my entire clip of rockets, maybe land 1 rocket for 270 damage. Then I have to wait a a couple minutes until hale stays still again and maybe get lucky.

I confess, I haven't used the Battlelions backup much. I've only tried using the buff banner a few times, but I don't like it because basically I can't rocket jump anymore since I take too much damage from rocket jumping without gunboats. And the buff banner takes a bit too long to fill up from what I remember. I am willing to try that battlelions backup + zatoichi strategy to see how effective that is.

I still want at least large overall ammo capacity size. It would help with maps that are scant with ammo packs, or have the ammo packs at opposite ends of the map in secluded spots inside houses where soldiers can easily get caught. just making it 4/30 would be helpful.
Last edited by freakplayer1 on Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Zethy
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Re: Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by Zethy »

A competent soldier is able to do more than 1k damage, a pro soldier can do 5k-8k, the rockets are easy to land, soldiers can easily get into the top damage, they have a great impact in the gamemode with their knockback and side tools. A scout's mobility isn't as vertical as Soldier's. A soldier can get everywhere, and can rollout faster than the scout with minimal health impact. Cloaking is mobility, it doesn't make you faster, it doesn't boost you, it's just a tool.

Also, Soldier is considered a top pick in vanilla TF2, so I guess you're the one playing a different game.

There is no sane reason to buff soldiers.
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Re: Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by MoneyKidKing »

Let me first off by saying that different classes have different advantages on different maps.

Soldiers ability to get around the map and maneuver himself around the boss gives him numerous advantages. Knowing the maps you're playing could allow you to easily maneuver around, get damage, and get to health kit/ammo kit locations. When playing lighter bosses, it is also super useful to be able to land hits to juggle a boss around to prevent him from moving around easily/being able to hit you or a teammate.

If you're using ammo so fast that you feel you need more base ammo, you need to learn maps. Almost every map has an abundance of ammo packs and health packs that you should be able to get yourself to as needed. Focus on actually hitting your shots instead of just shooting from far away. You're a mobile class, you can get fairly close, get hits, and get out fairly safely.
HankHill wrote:tl;dr Get good. That's the name of this game and it always has been.
Last edited by MoneyKidKing on Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestion: Buff Soldier in TF2 Freak Fortress server;

Post by HankHill »

freakplayer1 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:57 amJuggernaut? I don't feel like we're playing the same game. Yes, there is the occasional pro player who manages to score 3000 against a hale, every class has that. I'm not denying it's possible to score high with soldier if you are pro. But in my experience playing on the server for a couple of weeks soldiers don't really last. I'm telling you, soldier's don't get picked. And when they do get picked, more often then not they will end up doing little damage and not even being on the leaderboard, let alone top 3. He does not have 2nd best mobility. He has at most 3rd best mobility based on my observations of who tends to die last to hales. Scouts and pyros have better mobility than soldiers. Pyros have slightly faster movement speed and their flare jump is better than soldiers rocket jump. Also spies have better mobility if you count evasion skills with cloaking. I can more easily catch soldiers who are rocket jumping than catch the other three classes.
Spies definitely don't have better mobility, even with cloaking. A Hale can do a decent job tracking a cloaked Spy with hard reads and contact to reveal them on occasion. A Soldier that rocket jumps is more difficult to keep up with.
freakplayer1 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:57 amI mean, at least double clip size or slightly faster reload would be nice.
24 rockets is *plenty* if you know how to aim. Not to mention, if you want to play safe and not unload your entire clip, that's completely viable. Even if you wanna say 24 rockets isn't enough, there are these wonderful things in a map called Ammo Packs.
freakplayer1 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:57 amSoldiers have just okay mobility in my opinion, and they can't rocket jump much without abundant health packs. They can't rocket jump as well as pyros can flare jump, and even pyros have trouble avoiding hale when it's only a few people left. Plus, while they are rocket jumping they will probably fail to land any decent shots at hale anyway and then just end up dieing.
If you played the mode enough to know the downsides to mobility, you'd know why Pyro has better mobility, but at a severe cost; Flare Jumping, combined with fall damage, requires a significant amount of HP. Sure health packs exist, but it still limits Pyro to 2 or 3 flare jumps from full HP on average. Plus, when Soldier rocket jumps, is it really that difficult to look down and shoot a rocket? Coming from somebody that has played quite a few varieties of Soldier, I never found it to be difficult. A rocket jump as Soldier with Gunboats, plus the significantly reduced fall damage, deals less than 20 on average. You have 10 normal rocket jumps, or you can use them on trick jumps, whatever floats your boat, from full HP, and that's a problem?
freakplayer1 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:57 amSoldiers rarely place on the leaderboard, let alone top 3. They are not the best all-around class. I can rocket jump, but unless the map has health packs in good open locations, and unless hale sucks, it won't help much. I usually have no problem catching soldiers rocket jumping. I have more difficulty catching pyros who are flare jumping.
"I have no problem catching up to Soldiers, therefore the class sucks." -- Paraphrase

Health packs don't need to be in a good location for you to be unable to rocket jump several times. This is when learning the map and adapting comes to play, something you seem to have difficulty doing; if you know where a health pack is and you need to rocket jump away, rocket jump towards the direction of the health pack so you can close the distance.
freakplayer1 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:57 amIt's not that easy to get 1K damage with a hale that is running back and forth and super jumping all over the place. Usually I taunt, I shoot my entire clip of rockets, maybe land 1 rocket for 270 damage. Then I have to wait a a couple minutes until hale stays still again and maybe get lucky.
...and this small little bit right here basically negates any and every argument you could ever have, since this proves you lack the concept of how to genuine deal damage as Soldier.

Firstly, every boss with a Super Jump has cooldown for a reason. You have a few seconds to land a hit if they're jumping every possible moment as maximum height, but knowing how people play, that's simply not going to be the case. You'll definitely have more time to land hits.

Even worse, you're implying you can't even hit a moving Hale, relying on them standing still in order to deal damage. Does this not strike you as something you need to change and improve upon? You need to be able to hit a moving Hale, but also know when; it's obviously a bad idea to go for the airshot unless you're absolutely sure (or use the Direct Hit, but even then, that takes practice from hell), so when Hale's moving around on the ground, aim at the legs. So you won't hit every rocket directly, but the splash can at least reward you somewhat.

The worst part in all this, though, is that you don't do anything to pursue Hale, it seems; unless you misworded this, you wait until Hale comes back, limiting your damage even further. I fail to see the difficulty in flanking and following as necessary in order to maximize damage. Yes there's a risk if you screw up, but everybody that wants to deal damage as any close-range class plays to the risk; Scouts try to double jump over Hale to avoid hits, even if that leaves them vulnerable above them, Pyro must time the airblast properly or they'll be left open to kill, Heavy is so slow and needs either a Medic, Dispenser, or very specific playstyles to stay alive, and Spy's backstabs require much skill to land against a competent Hale, meaning they have to weave around 1v1 or use other players as distractions, lest they be the next death on the team. Soldier honestly has it easy in comparison since you can stay further away from Hale than you could as Scout, Pyro, and Spy, meaning you have more time to react if he turns to you. That doesn't mean snipe Hale from a distance, but it means you can stay several feet from Hale instead of a couple like Scout and Pyro...or none with Spy.
freakplayer1 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:57 amI still want at least large overall ammo capacity size. It would help with maps that are scant with ammo packs, or have the ammo packs at opposite ends of the map in secluded spots inside houses where soldiers can easily get caught. just making it 4/30 would be helpful.
He doesn't need any buffs since he's already damn good. Sure not every map is catered to him, but you could say the same about any class with numerous maps. Study them and figure out what fits best.
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